YMB #92 Growth Mindset for Kids: A Conversation with Ginny Kochis

This is Your Morning Basket, where we help you bring truth, goodness, and beauty to your homeschool day. Hi everyone. And welcome to episode 92 of the, Your Morning Basket podcast. I’m Pam Barnhill, your host, and I’m so happy that you’re joining me here today. Well, growth mindset for kids is something that we hear talked about often in the homeschool world. These days, the buzzword just seems to be everywhere, but something we don’t hear talked about often is growth mindset from a Christian perspective. And that’s why I’m so happy to have Ginny Kochis on the podcast today. We always want to be having positive self-talk, but as a Christian people, we also want to remember that God is there to help us with that. And that’s exactly what Ginny and I are going to be chatting about today.

Now, if you would like to have more conversations about this episode of the podcast, we would love to have you join us in the Your Morning Basket community. It is absolutely free and you can come over and talk with other homeschoolers who are traveling this journey, practicing the morning basket, or just doing homeschooling. We would love to have you there, and you can find that at members.Pambarnhill.com and now on with podcasts,
Ginny Kochis is an author of multiple books, including made for greatness, a growth mindset journal for courageous Catholic youth. She is a blogger at not so formulaic where she shares passionately about Catholic motherhood homeschooling and provides tons of resources for parenting differently, wired kids. She also advocates for gifted and twice-exceptional children through her private community, the Zelie society, which is a place specifically for moms who are raising and homeschooling gifted 2E children. But most importantly, she is a mom of three living the joys and the challenges of homeschooling Ginny, welcome to the program.
Thank you so much, Pam. It’s great to be here. I am so Happy that you’re here. Start off by telling me a little bit about yourself and your homeschool.
Okay. Well, I’m a Catholic mom to three, twice-exceptional kids. I started homeschooling about eight years ago when we, our oldest went to kindergarten first in, she went to school and it was not the greatest experience. What we didn’t know, but what we do know now is that she has high functioning autism. They identified her under the Asperger’s umbrella and they identified her also as gifted.
So she, you know, she’s a twice-exceptional, which is a child who is gifted and has some sort of either learning or developmental disability. So for her, you know, being in the classroom, I mean, she was reading at a very advanced level before she went into kindergarten, being in the classroom with the kind of knowledge that she had already kind of amassed.
And then just her inability, really to figure out how to communicate her needs. Her sensory needs, her emotional needs. It was really not a good fit. So we decided to bring her home and we started homeschooling her in first grade and it just kind of grew from there. She has really blossomed with homeschooling and just, you know, becoming a young woman.
She is really, you know, self-aware and really focused on her goals, which is really great to see. And then our ten-year-old, she has a generalized anxiety disorder and OCD, which we learned about probably when she was in first or second grade. And I was already homeschooling her because I, she had a lot of anxiety, but we didn’t really have a diagnosis.
So keeping her home, having her home was easier. It was a better environment for her to learn because there wasn’t all the pressure. And then our youngest is six and he’s he’s in kindergarten, but I just, he’s a mess. I don’t even know what to do with him. He’s just super busy and he never stops talking and he’s always moving.
I mean, he’s my first and only boy. So he is very much a boy, which I wasn’t really anticipating, which I mean, you know, raising two girls first, it was, I mean, my girls are tomboys, but he’s just, man.
It’s a totally different animal.
It really, really, really is. So that’s, that’s what we’re doing. We’re just, I guess we’re more, we’ve done lots of different things as far as curriculum is concerned, but right now we’re using Catholic Heritage Curricula and teaching textbooks and just kind of doing the best, you know, that taking the next step forward, you know, doing the best we can every day. So,
Oh, that sounds, that sounds great. It sounds like you’re doing wonderfully and I’m so glad you, you define to E in there that twice-exceptional kind of thing for so gifted and then some other, some other exceptionality that, you know, can cause struggles in a traditional school setting and a lot of parents who pull their kids out and homeschool for that very reason.
I wanted to have you on today to talk a little bit about the idea of growth mindset. So can you tell me, like, when people talk about this term, this growth mindset thing, which is a quite frankly, a buzzword we’ve been hearing a lot about over the past few years, what exactly does it mean?
Okay. So growth mindset is when you see your challenges as stepping stones, it’s the idea that you can always learn something new, that your skills aren’t finite and that the mistakes that you’ve made can help propel you forward. If you look at them as learning opportunities.
So it’s, it’s kind of like an antidote to thoughts. Like I’m not good at this. I’m not really a math person. This isn’t something that’s up my alley. You know, the idea with growth mindset is that you take those skills or you think of those skills or areas of expertise that are not your greatest and see them as a way or an opportunity to always learn something new, you know, every day and, and become more of a, more of the person that you were meant to be. And that’s the person that you can be.
So the opposite of a growth mindset is what’s referred to as a fixed mindset where you are convinced that, okay, you know what? I had a really hard time with learning division. I’m not going to be able, I’m just not a math person, this isn’t, this just, isn’t something I can do. Or, you know, I don’t, I’m not a writer. Yeah. I’m really not a writer. I’m really not a reader either. I much prefer, you know, the sciences or even into, you know, extracurricular activities like, well, you know, I never really got to play soccer. You know, I didn’t get a lot of field time, so I’m just not an athletic person.
Well, none of those things are really true. So, you know, maybe you did have trouble with division. Maybe you do have trouble with writing. Maybe soccer was not really the best experience for you, but there are other ways to kind of take what you’ve learned from those moments and opportunities and turn them into something more or better or different. So that’s what, that’s what growth mindset is in a nutshell, basically.
Okay. And so this is, has a lot to do with the conversation that we’re having with ourselves about ourselves.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It, it involves a lot of self-reflection. It involves a lot of, well, I I’ve been, I have always struggled with anxiety and depression. And so I recently started working with a therapist and she’s been helping me kind of develop my own growth mindset and learn how to, how to kind of retrain my brain from, you know, the negative thoughts and things that pop into my head.
Like, I can’t do this to, you know, okay. Yes, I had trouble with this specific thing, but what did I learn from this? And how can I use that to continue or, you know, change what I do the next time. So yeah, it is all about, you know, the internal conversation that you’re having kind of that, that metacognition, that thinking about the way you’re thinking. And, and that’s how we kind of retrain our brains to look at obstacles as opportunities.
Okay. I love it. Now, this is why I specifically wanted to have you on how is the idea of growth mindset different in a Christian Context?
Okay. So I think first we have to talk about the difference between desolations and consolations. So, you know, sometimes the negative thoughts that we have are more than just negative thoughts. They’re whispers from, you know, from the evil one. And like his, his desire is to pull us away from God. Okay. So those thoughts, like I’m worthless. I can’t do this, you know, I have, no, I have no talents in this area.
You know, those, those are not thoughts that come from God. So on the other hand, you have consolations, which are feelings of peace and comfort that come from God. Like those moments where you just suddenly feel like, you know what God is with me right now. And I feel, you know, very, you know, I’m, I’m happy and I’m at peace.
So it’s kind of like, there’s this meme that I saw rumbling around Facebook. And it was a whole list of, you know, things like Satan’s voice rattles you, God’s voice stills you. That is what I mean, that’s, that is essentially what we’re talking about with consolations and desolations. So in a Christian context, we’re training the brain to remember the purpose behind everything we do when we talk about growth mindset.
So we look at the negative thoughts and the self beliefs that are, that are limiting. And we see those as desolations. And instead we think about, you know, what God wants us to be, who God wants us to be, because our, our challenges and struggles are opportunities to grow closer to Christ, to learn, to trust him and lean on him and to grow into the person that he wants us to be.
So when you look at, you know, when you compare a secular growth mindset to a Christian growth mindset, what you’re looking at is that with a secular growth mindset, it teaches children that they can do anything, but with a Christian growth mindset, you’re teaching your children, that they can do anything through Christ who strengthens them.
And I, and I think that’s a really key point because otherwise it’s devoid of purpose. It’s like, you know, biting into a Boston cream donut and expecting to get, you know, that, that really gooey stuff in the middle. And then it’s, it’s empty. There’s no substance to it. So, you know, it’s also in the fact that the secular growth mindset is rooted in personal achievement.
So like in what I can do to make myself better and to succeed, but in a Christian growth mindset, it’s rooted in the value of what we can do for others. And you know, how we can learn from the suffering that we take on, you know, the way that we carry our crosses, because, you know, the truth is like, there’s that saying, that says, God, doesn’t send you weight. What does it say now? I can’t remember.
He doesn’t give you more than you can even handle.
Yes. Thank you. Well, I mean, and that’s not true. I mean, he does, but, but it’s not, it’s not to test us, but it’s, you know, it’s, it’s like, well, and see, now I’m going to, I’m going to contradict myself. It’s like gold, that’s tested in fire. He’s strengthening us and, and helping us to really give the gift of self and go through the, the flames of refinement and, and become stronger in that way. So, and then the last point, the secular growth mindset is all about growth and ability. And the Christian growth mindset is all about growth in Christ. Like, what is God’s will for your life? Who does he want you to be? What kind of person does he want you to be? What changes does he want you to bring about in the world? And, you know, when you look at growth mindset in that way, it’s not just how can I turn my challenges into stepping stones, but how can I turn my challenges into something good for God?
I love that. And you know, it’s, As a Christian, it feels great to know that I don’t have to do this alone. I can’t do this alone. You know, it gives me if I ask for them, he gives me the graces that I need.
Absolutely.
And I, and not out there, I don’t just have to depend on myself. And so I love the idea of growth mindset, but I especially love it from a Christian perspective.
Yeah, I do too. I think it makes it all that more meaningful and, and useful.
Really. Yeah. Yeah. And we’re becoming more like Christ. I mean, that, that’s what our growth is about is really to become, you know, to try.
Yes, Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s, it’s not easy, you know, that is like the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It’s not easy because we always want to, we want to take, like, I think inherently, there’s just something about us, about humanity, where we just kind of want to do the easiest thing, you know, and becoming like Christ is, is not easy. So Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Well, what do you think homeschoolers need to have a growth mindset?
You know, I, I was thinking about that homeschooling is such a uniquely nourishing environment and, and in a lot of ways, you know, that’s a really positive thing, but it can also have its downsides, you know, where at least I know for my children, you know, if something is really giving them trouble, I am, I am kind of, maybe I’m a little, little weak on it, but I’ll, you know, I’ll, I’ll say, you know what, let’s, it’s okay, let’s put this aside and we’ll come back to it later.
So, I mean, they are eventually going to come back to it. But I think, you know, if I were reflecting on myself and in my own journey with growth mindset, if I were going to set a strong example, I would say, okay, let’s take a look at the struggles that we’re having and see how we can use those to, you know, help us solve this problem. So what have you learned sitting here, staring at this math problem? You know, have you learned maybe that patience is a little hard to come by when you’re stressed out? You know, have you learned that maybe there are some topics, you know, especially for gifted kids when you’re, you know, gifted children, lots of things come really easily, but then not everything does. So when something is harder to grasp, it’s really valuable. I think, to be able to say, you know what, it’s okay, that this is hard because what we’re doing is we’re, you know, we’re strengthening those muscles, those heavy lifting muscles that we need to tackle those bigger things in life.
So, but you know, aside from, you know, that aspect of homeschooling being the right environment and that way, it’s also the perfect environment because you are teaching these skills without the distraction or peer pressure or fear of comparison. So you’re preparing your kids to have this intrinsic motivation and this natural curiosity to want to learn on their own and to just enjoy discovery and be a part of learning new things.
You’re helping them develop grit and tenacity, perseverance, you know, trustworthiness, all of these things that they’re going to need when they go out into the real world so that they can pursue God’s will and change the world. Like I mentioned earlier. It’s a way that they can become cheerleaders for themselves and then cheerleaders also for their siblings.
So I think it, it contributes overall to like just an attitude that really makes your homeschool all that more special and unique because it’s not, you know, yeah. We’re sitting here, we’re learning, this is school, but it’s more like an approach to life. It’s more of a, you know, I’m a lifelong student, you know, I am, I’m an adventurer, you know, I’m going to do what God has set out for me to do, you know, I’m going to discern his will and I’m going to pursue that. And I think, you know, that is a really important piece in a Christian homeschool.
Yeah. What about moms?
Oh gosh. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, for moms, well, I mean, I’ve already talked about my own experience with it. I think, you know, homeschooling is a heavy mental load, you know, and motherhood is a heavy mental load and it’s really easy to get to the point where you start to question yourself across the board. Like, am I, you know, am I really a good mom? Am I really a good teacher? Am I doing the right thing for my kids? Like, like last night, you know, I was lying in bed trying to fall asleep. And all I could think about was how I haven’t really been hugging my ten-year-old enough, you know? And I was thinking to myself, gosh, you know, I she’s, she’s probably so miserable. She’s probably so start from my touch. I’m not, I’m not doing a very good job at this motherhood thing. And then this morning she comes downstairs, you know, wrapped in her like reindeer blanket. And it has like a giant ranger head. So she looks really cute and ridiculous.
We have a Wolf blanket with a giant Wolf head. Yes.
So she, she comes in plus down beside me. And I just look at her and say, you know, I’m sorry, I don’t hug you enough. And she was like, what? I’m fine. You don’t need to hug me. You know? And I clearly, I mean, she’s in that tween phase where like, she’s not sure how she feels about, you know, parental affection anyway, but it just, you know, she was like, mom, I’ve never felt like you don’t love me enough. You know? So having that, you’re having that reassurance was nice. But anyway, I’m getting off topic. Sorry.
But it was just so easy for you, even as a mom, even as a grownup to fall into that pattern of self doubt and, you know, talking badly to yourself and really that wasn’t, that wasn’t the reality.
No, no, not at all. And even it gets to the point where like, when you give yourself compliments, they’re still kind of backhanded compliments, you know, it’s like, well, and my six-year-old God bless him. He said to me today, you know, mom, I’m not sure if you’re the best mom in the world, but you’re a good one, you know? And I was thinking like, that’s how my that’s how I sound to myself. You know, like, gosh, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m pretty okay. You know, but I think, you know, having a growth mindset allows you to ameliorate those, those feelings and feel more, if not confident, at least that you can conquer the things that you feel need adjustment. So, I mean, because no one is perfect, you know, and, and we’re all gonna make mistakes, but we can’t let those mistakes define us or keep us from moving forward. So if you’ve, if you’ve developed that sort of desire to break out of the fixed mindset of, you know, this isn’t going to change, I’m not going to change. I can’t change. Then it’s much easier. I think, to handle the homeschooling load, handle the motherhood load and, and the load of, you know, the mental load of being a wife too, because that, I mean, that’s pretty hefty also. And it brings you closer to Christ in the, through the day in day out, things that you’re doing, it keeps you grounded in the purpose of everything that you’re doing. So, you know, the homeschooling, the, the mothering, all of it, it’s all designed to bring your children to him and bring yourself closer to him.
Okay. So let’s say I’m sitting here with my kids, it’s morning time, and we’re gathered around and maybe I’ve noticed something going on. I’m going to let you pick the something. So could be an example of how, how we might work through an exercise or have a little conversation that would help build up some growth mindset of something I’ve been seeing in my children.
You pick the thing. Okay. So let’s say there is a drama club, let’s say there’s a drama club and there’s an opportunity to audition for the next seasons performance. And this particular child has tried out before, tried out a number of times and has either been stuck in the chorus, not stuck in the chorus placed in the course. Let me see.
I’m rephrasing it. Growth mindset like placed in the course or on a couple of occasions, not cast. And so now this child is saying, you know, I’m not sure I really want to, I, you know, I’m, I’m not cut out for theater. I don’t really want to do this, but you know, deep inside that this is a child of yours who, basically eats theater for breakfast, you know, really enjoys it. So the first thing that I would probably do is to encourage that self-reflection and kind of through a guided conversation, helped my child begin to see what he or she has learned from the times that they were in the chorus. So, you know, the fact that they learned how to be a team player, that they learned how to work well in a group that they’ve sharpened their voice and acting skills, you know, and then, you know, going back and looking at maybe even some old recordings of the performances, if you have them, you know, seeing like, this is how you started, this was the first performance you were in, and this is the most recent one.
Let’s see what are some changes that you noticed about yourself and how you’ve grown. So giving them something concrete to say, like, look, you know, you really have made improvements. And then, you know, it’s okay. I think to look at the areas where they still have some areas for growth and say, okay, so, you know, what is it that you didn’t like about what you saw in that performance? You know, what, what do you think you could do differently? And then you can discuss, you know, how are we going to improve those particular things? Like let’s make a game plan, let’s come up with, you know, things that we can work on between now and the audition that would help you maybe, you know, get a result. That’s closer to what you’re looking for. And also just, just teaching them to find joy in the process. So, you know, if, if the particular audition for this particular drama club or company or whatever is causing a lot of stress, then just doing something that’s way more fun or not way more fun, but less pressure.
So putting together, you know, saying, you know what, let’s, why don’t you and your friends, or why don’t all of us, your family let’s write our own play, let’s write our own script, let’s put it on. We’ll just do it for the neighborhood and it’ll be a blast, you know? So, so looking at alternative ways to kind of continue their growth in that area, but in a less stressful, more positive way. And I think, you know, in, in other situations, you, there are ways like if you’re talking about academics, sitting down and reading, you know, stories of like Alexander Graham Bell who failed a bunch of times, you know, he had a real hard time until he stumbled on the whole telephone.
And then, you know, even now, even then there’s like question about, you know, whether or not he really, you know, designed the phone and what he went on to do later, or, you know, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein is another one, you know, he failed out of school, you know, and on multiple occasions and had to be home, not had to be homeschooled. His parents decided to homeschool him because he wasn’t, you know, the classroom just wasn’t the right place for him, you know, and, and look where he ended up. So, you know, I think taking a break from, you know, walking away from the, is walking away from that really tough essay question or from the chapter that you just can’t get through, or that is, you know, a giant struggle and saying, you know what let’s read about? You know, let’s read about Helen Keller or, you know, let’s, let’s look at some people who have had difficulties and overcome them and, you know, see how that relates to you too. So it’s more of a development of a, well, I mean, it’s developing a mindset. It’s, it’s like changing the way you approach your learning. So it’s not so much, you know, let’s, how can we fix this issue right now? It’s not like the flip of a switch. It’s more a gradual development of a particular attitude that you build over time. If that makes sense.
Yeah. Because I think what happens is we fall into these habits of talking to ourselves this way. And so, you know, if something ends up being difficult for us, then we immediately default to this habit of talking to ourself. And so what we really have to do is change the habit of how we immediately react to something like this.
Yes. Yeah, that’s exactly right. Because our, what our brains do is they develop these, you know, the brain always looks for the shortest pathway to something. And so it develops the neural pathway that you use most often, and then it sticks to that. So you get sort of a, a recurring loop of behavior because, you know, like you said, it’s a habit. And in order to change that neural pathway, you have to, I mean, it’s hard work. You have to retrain your brain to make those, those additional pathways and then not just make them eventually prefer them to other things or to, to other, you know, to other more negative pathways.
So, Yeah. So this is not something that’s going to happen overnight. It’s like, you’re going to know. Yeah. Yes, no, that’s very true. I think one of the things is it’ll be like, after listening to the podcast, after me recording this with you and listening to you talk about it, this is going to be something that I’m going to start to notice in my kids and probably myself too. Oh yeah. That’s what Ginny was talking about. That little thing right there, and then it can be redirected with, well, you know, how can we approach this differently? You know, what, what can we say to ourself instead? So, yeah.
Well now you also have another little aid that will help us in doing this. Tell us a little bit about your book made for greatness and what led you to write it.
Okay. Well, I, I wasn’t happy. Well, I guess in the early, well, probably 2010, 2015, the school district we were living in, I mean, I used to be an educator. I was a high school English teacher, but the school district came up with a plan for teaching character. And it talked about, you know, all the different, it talked about instilling in kids, all the different virtues of a person who is kind a person who is respectful, a person who is trustworthy, a person who is honest, you know, and, and it was fine and good, but he was just like, I keep going back to that Boston Cream Donut analogy.
It was like just fluff. You know, there wasn’t really any substance to it. And then I became a little more familiar with the concept of growth mindset around that, around that same time a Stanford university professor Carol Dweck wrote a book called Mindset where she she’s kind of like the, the forerunner, the researcher behind this particular term. And so I had read in graduate school, I had brought some of her work and I, again, I felt like it was missing something and I wanted to help my children develop a growth mindset. Yes. But I wanted them to understand the purpose behind it, you know, like I’ve been saying. So I decided since I couldn’t find one that was from a Christian perspective and that’s what I wanted. I decided I would write it myself. So I did.
And what it does is it takes scripture and the virtues and stories of the saints and stories of Christian teens, and young adults who have faced great obstacles and challenges and overcome them. And it leads the reader through the development of a growth mindset, kind of like, you know, one virtue at a time.
So yeah, it’s, I’m, my kids have enjoyed reading it. I think it’s, it’s helped them see the connection between redemptive suffering and the idea that, you know, for us to grow, they’re going to be growing pains. But, you know, we are doing these growing pains to become closer to Christ and, you know, I’ve been happy with how they’ve received it.
So I love it. And, and I have a copy here except I can’t find it. I think it’s in my teens room. That’s fine. That’s a good place for it to be. Yeah. And I was like trying to put my hands on it before we started the interview, so I could flip through it. And I was like, no, it’s not where I expected it to be. I think that means somewhere else. So that’s a good thing, but yeah, it’s, it’s a great little book and it has some readings and exercises and in there, if I’m remembering correctly.
Yeah, Yeah. It has, you know, it, it has discussion questions and scripture meditations, and then profiles of Holy men and women, and then, you know, profiles of regular Christian kids just doing the best they can. And those are written from the first person perspective. Like I had contributors write their stories for me, and then I kind of modified them into the, into the book, but yeah, I it’s, you know, I’m proud of it.
And then in the back, there’s little suggestions for, you know, there’s a section on Say This, Not That growth mindset edition. There’s an overview of growth mindset reminders for kids and their parents. There’s plenty of places to take notes.
Yeah. Awesome. Well, what other resources could you share if, if moms are listening today and they’re like, Oh, you know what, I’ve got this kid and they’re always putting themselves down and maybe this is something that we could work on. What other resources can you share for moms who want to teach their kids about having a growth, but not a fixed mindset?
Sure. Well, I think Carol Dweck’s book mindset is a great resource and also her Ted talk, which you can, her, her last name is D W E C K. So Carol Dweck. And, you know, you can find her easily online if you just Google Carol Dweck growth mindset, you know, it’s, there’s plenty of stuff. Yeah. Then I also, what was it?
Oh, this is actually more of a recommendation of a book for moms. It’s cognitive behavioral therapy made simple. And while it’s not necessarily growth mindset specifically, it’s the same kind of principles and it helps you learn how to retrain your brain. So, you know, you moving away from the negative thoughts and the automatic negative thoughts toward more productive internal conversations. And so, you know, it helps, it helps people overcome anxiety, depression, and also, you know, those, those desolations. And I can’t, I can’t remember the guy’s name off the top of my head and the book is upstairs, but I can get you the author’s name after the, after the show, after we record. And then I have like, there’s three scriptures that I think are really good, Hebrews 12, Philippians 4:13, and Psalm 139. You know, those are really good, I think to either get printed for you or print them up and, you know, hang around your house and just, you know, kind of keep them available so that you can read them, you know, over and over again, and just meditate on them and, and in what, you know, the ways in which God loves us and how he supports us in the challenges that we have
Sounds like that would be some great memory work for Your Morning Basket.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, Ginny tell everybody Where they can find you online.
I’m at, gosh, and I, you know, I rue the day I chose this web address because I always like, not only do I have trouble spelling it, I have trouble saying it, but at this point I’m not going to change it, but it’s, it’s www.notsoformulaic.com and that’s where I am. And we will link to it in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. It was.
I thought I was being clever, you know, because it was like, well, untraditional, it’s not even a word, a unique approach to, you know, Christian parenting of the differently wired. And you know, it’s not a, it’s not a formula. It’s a, you know, it’s a unique and unrepeatable thing. And then I don’t know.
It’s really hard to type in.
It is. I know, I know. Oh, well.
So we are going to make sure that everybody who wants to find you can just come click on the link and find you, so we will take care of that for you. Well, Ginny, thank you so much for joining me here today. It was, it was really lovely. I’ve learned some, some things and it was just, it was nice to talk about this. Like I said, it’s something that you hear everywhere, but you’re right at that. What I’ve always felt like is that there was something missing from inside that donut. And so I, I definitely love your approach to it. So thank you.
Yeah. You’re welcome. Thanks for having me on And there you have it.
Now, if you would like links to any of the books or resources that Ginny and I chatted about today, you can find them on the show notes for this episode of the podcast. Those are pambarnhill.com/YMB92. Also on the show notes, we have a link for you. If you would like to leave a rating or review of the podcast on iTunes, the ratings and reviews that you leave, really help us to get the word out about the podcast to brand new listeners. And so we always appreciate everyone who takes the time to do that. Thank you so very, very much. And Hey, you can also hit subscribe, subscribe to the podcast and we would love to have you back again in a couple of weeks until then keep seeking truth, goodness and beauty in your homeschool day.